Author Topic: Naming conventions  (Read 24624 times)

Mandos

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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2006, 09:36:40 PM »
You have the direct experience of oppression, and like I said, a material loss like that is reason enough.  Whereas, I know where they are coming from and why they are coming from there and know what it would take to change them, and leaving them because of their politics would do little for anyone, myself included.

Polly

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Going out on a limb here....
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2006, 11:59:26 PM »
...but, pretty sure that women and children taking last names might have a lil somethin' to do with women and children as property.

If men need bonding, they can get in there changing nappies.

Mandos

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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2006, 01:08:38 AM »
By bonding I don't mean as in "friendship".

skdadl

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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2006, 05:12:18 AM »
Quote from: Mandos

eph wrote:
Quote
What I do have a problem with is keeping up meaningless and oppressive traditions for no more reason than that it is a tradition, and it is considered far too much trouble than it is worth to ruffle a few feathers and stir the pot a little.

I do sort of take this position.  Good relations are usually more important to me than pot-stirring in real life.  The benefits of the latter, on things without significant direct material import, rarely outweigh the stress and loss.  Not worth not acquiescing.


I'm somewhere in between these positions. I have many positive reasons to want to keep my family together but evolving creatively, let's say, so I do  some peacekeeping some of the time. That matters a lot to me, and in my family it seems to work most of the time and to be worth it most of the time. But some things will burst out periodically -- I just take that as a given too.

And sometimes, trying to smooth things over can be very hurtful to another party who really feels the need of redress. When that is going on in a family, the repression can make some individuals very sick.

vmichel

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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2006, 06:58:25 AM »
Quote from: ephemeral
Quote from: Mandos
I do sort of take this position.  Good relations are usually more important to me than pot-stirring in real life.  The benefits of the latter, on things without significant direct material import, rarely outweigh the stress and loss.  Not worth not acquiescing.

Well, that is where you and I differ, Mandos. Regardless of whether somebody is a relative or not, I have serious trouble telling a homophobe and a sexist that I love them. Even more so if I am the one being oppressed.


I don't have much truck with "good relations" for the sake of good relations, but I do swallow a lot of political anger for the sake of kindness. If standing my ground means I will wound someone I care about, then I usually yield. I try to find another way to address the situation, but honestly there usually isn't one.

I do get flaming mad sometimes, but usually with people that I didn't care that much about to begin with.

I admire people who are able to cast off people and start fresh, but I have always had a hard time with that. The truth is that if I wanted to live a life free of homophobes or sexists, I would be completely alone. Most people I love have a streak of one or the other. It's ingrained in the mucky society we live in.

I hate to get all religious, but I think there is something to be said for staying in that mucky place and leading by example. I have seen a lot of men come to change their opinions about women through time and reflection on what happens to their sisters, wives, daughters, and friends.

Edited to remove a sentence and to add: I am aware that this makes me something of an apologist. I admire all of you who are not.

lagatta

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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2006, 10:37:59 AM »
Usually I don't see the point of arguing with such people, but I keep my distances from them. There are some biological family members to whom I am close, but most of my close relationships are with chosen family, relations forged over the decades. Sure, I have to see relatives sometimes, but it is a social obligation; I think of it in terms akin to business meetings. That also keeps me from arguing with the more retrograde among them.

Not all relatives are reactionary. I have a young cousin who is a student at UQAM who was in the front ranks of the Québec student movement a couple of years ago.
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

arborman

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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2006, 01:23:54 PM »
I have varying levels of expectation on behaviour and attitudes from the people I know.

Close relatives, I don't hesitate to point out when they cross the line (immediate family).  That said, my parents make Tommy Douglas look like a backward paleocon, and my sister is an unhesitant and positive feminist.  So it doesn't come up much.

The next circle out - in-laws, cousins, folks I see at weddings & funerals, I'm less confrontational.  Some of arborwoman's cousins carry the unexamined racism vs. immigrants & First Nations that permeates our society, and I don't hesitate to challenge them - though she usually beats me to it.  A couple of my other cousins are strong social conservatives, and I will engage them in debate when I can.  But I'm not willing to create a major confrontation at a wedding or funeral just to make a social/political point.

Circles of friends are a bit different.  In my everyday life I look for and find tolerance and awareness.  The minimum acceptable standard is obliviousness - people who are not necessarily conscious of race or gender issues, but are not racist or sexist by nature or action.  My social time is limited, and I just can't be bothered to spend it all locked in debate and argument on first principles.  I'd rather talk about food, or kids or something.

Then there is the nebulous category of 'old friends'.  People I grew up with, people I went to high school with.  Most of them never went beyond high school, and all of them work in the oilfield in Alberta.  I see them once or twice a year when I visit the family.  They are unexamined racists and unconsciously homophobic.  None of them are violent or abusive, they love their families and are trying to live their lives reasonably well, but just don't get outside the bubble much.  And I've been challenging them on racism since we were 10 years old, and homophobia since we were 20.  I still do, and they roll their eyes, agree that I'm right and change nothing.  But I've known these guys since I was a little fella, and we have a lot of shared history.  

If I lived in the same city as them, or even the same province, I'd probably still only see them once a year. But I still like going for that pint of beer on Boxing Day and catching up with them, seeing their kids & showing off my own.  I don't think cutting them off would accomplish anything, and I may yet wear them down - but probably not.  So I guess I accept a bit more than a purist might expect me to, but there it is.

And for people over 80, one makes allowances of course.
The pleasures of the table are for every man, of every land, and no matter what place in history or society; they can be a part of all his other pleasures, and they last the longest, to console him when he has outlived the rest.

Bacchus

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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2006, 01:46:37 PM »
Quote
And for people over 80, one makes allowances of course.


When my 89yr mother was in the hospital recently, she patted the nurse attending her (he was trinidadian) and told him "you people lvoe fried chicken"

He said "I dont"

She said yes you do! and went on talking about it

We told him that if she didnt make it through the night, we'd understand. He laughed and said he's heard much much worse. And a friend of mine's mother who is a ehad nurse in a old age home says she has some residents who will spend the nite in soiled clothes, in order to avoid being tended to by a POC.
When you're on your own
When you're at a fork in the road
You don't know which way to go
There's too many signs and arrows
You haven't laughed in a while
When you can't even fake a smile
When you feel ashamed...
The uniform don't make you brave

chester

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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2006, 03:59:07 PM »
Quote
We told him that if she didnt make it through the night, we'd understand.
:D

skdadl

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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2006, 05:16:18 PM »
Quote from: Bacchus
And a friend of mine's mother who is a ehad nurse in a old age home says she has some residents who will spend the nite in soiled clothes, in order to avoid being tended to by a POC.


Yeah ... except I consider that a problem.

In situations like that, you have clashing priorities, in my view. You don't have one person's marginalization trumping another's.

If you can see that an old person's health is being affected by the caregiver, for whatever reason, you should have a system wise enough and flexible enough to change caregivers.

There is nothing funny in that situation. It is hell for everyone who has to cope with it. But you don't let sick people develop gangrene (which is what will happen) because they can't cope with a world that is too new to them.

The labour situation of our careworkers is awful, and there is a clear racist element in their exploitation.

But what kind of politics sets the sick elderly against the exploited immigrants? That's what the bleeding manipulators at the top want. The intelligent political answer is not to laugh at a dying old person who is incontinent and suffering.   :evil:

Mandos

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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2006, 05:20:59 PM »
Problem is that in parts of there world there are no non-POC caregivers.  I now live in a place like that: there are no non-coloured caregivers of any kind at any level, except doctors...  And by non-coloured, I don't mean Asians either.  I mean the *historically* racially-discriminated underclasses, blacks and Hispanics.

Edited to remove something silly.

skdadl

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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2006, 05:29:26 PM »
Yeah, I know, Mandos.

But what does that make us think about our culture and our politics?

Bacchus

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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2006, 07:21:34 PM »
Sadly, the only people who will take the night shifts generally, are 'new' nurses and the only 'new' ones that want to work in a nursing home and generally 'new' immigrants. And the only 'new' immigrants who are desperate enough but qualified are POC immigrants
When you're on your own
When you're at a fork in the road
You don't know which way to go
There's too many signs and arrows
You haven't laughed in a while
When you can't even fake a smile
When you feel ashamed...
The uniform don't make you brave

lagatta

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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2006, 07:33:33 PM »
The only exception is certain immigrants and refugees from Eastern Europe. I met a very highly-educated woman from Bosnia working at a shitty makework job and trying to become a caregiver.

But being of the right colour and of a generally "European" culture should help her somewhat.  The same applies to some extent in the case of the Argentineans who emigrated during the recent currency crisis (and historically, the Chileans, Argentineans and Uruguayans who fled the Dirty War). At least here in Québec, they have tended to fit in and become "invisible" with far more success than the less educated and more "visible" refugees and immigrants from Central America.
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Bacchus

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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2006, 08:33:20 PM »
Ah yes I had missed that Lagatta

East European is the new 'black'
When you're on your own
When you're at a fork in the road
You don't know which way to go
There's too many signs and arrows
You haven't laughed in a while
When you can't even fake a smile
When you feel ashamed...
The uniform don't make you brave

 

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