Not just for childfree...

[lagatta]

Just because there are a number of threads on parenting related experiences: pregnancy, breastfeeding etc. Which is fine.

Thought I'd open up a thread about the other side of life; life without children (childfree/childless - I don't like either term, actually, as childfree sounds at best defensive and at worst an insult to parents and children, and childless as if we are missing something).  But parents, pre-parents and postparents are also welcome to join in - by post-parents, of course I mean parents whose children are adults and no longer live with you - of course you remain parents as long as you and/or the child lives, but you may still live alone or with another adult partner or friend.

I never wanted to have children - I'm happy that feminists feel freer to parent than was the case among my set (heavy-duty socialist-feminist activists) but never felt the absence some do if they don't procreate.  Is this a result of our own backgrounds, social pressure, biology?

I know my own family was most unhappy and I have zero desire to reproduce that dynamic, but I know other people from unhappy families who ached to do better themselves.

[Timebandit]

It's such an individual thing, isn't it?

My closest friend is a non-parent by choice.  She is a writer, and felt that being a parent would mean having to compromise in her work and wasn't sure if she could choose that without resentment -- resentment, whether it's directed at a child or the universe, is such a damaging thing.  It's not as though she and her husband dislike children, quite the contrary.  They are, however, much better godlessparents to mine than they would have been parents of their own.  We all win. :)

At one point in my life, I did not want to have children, didn't ever think I would want to.  But later on I felt that having at least one child was something I really did want.

I think one of the greatest aims in feminism should be that we women should be able to choose either path without having to defend it, yes?

ETA:  As much as I love my kids, there are times when I wish the blond guy and I had more time as non-parents before having them.  I wouldn't trade them for the world, but I do think it will be good for us to be able to have some time alone when they're grown.

[Herr Magoo]

Mrs. Magoo and I are still massively on the fence with regard to the kids/no kids thing.  We haven't made any particular plans to have any, but neither have we declared that we shall never.  It looks like fun sometimes, and I suspect that all of us has at least a tiny, lizard-brain impulse to make copies, but in so many ways it's not where we're at right now.  And we're honest enough to admit that self-centredness is a part of it; we don't know if we want to have our days planned, our money spent, our walls crayoned on, etc.  Perhaps someday.

[fern hill]

I never wanted children either. Like lagatta, I did not want to reproduce that family, though sibs were convinced they could do it better.

I had a lovely dream a few months ago. Sweetie and I were an item 30 years ago, got together again 11 (!) years ago now. Dream was we had a child back then, now all grown up and delightful. Exactly the right sort of child. Neither of us knew about the child until he showed up.

Well, that can happen to men. It would be kinda neat if it could happen to women. Or, maybe not.

[skdadl]

I never had abstract thoughts or plans about things like this. I never wanted to get married until I met the man I knew I would marry, eg.

When people asked me the questions in the abstract when I was younger -- Don't you want to get married? Don't you want children? -- I absolutely could not connect with the questions. (I still have that problem. I can't answer most of the questions people ask me.)

My family was biggish and more happy than not, but unconventional in some ways. Only one of five of us reproduced, and he had only one. That family unit was utterly different from the one we grew up in.

I have two step-children, one of whom is a delight to me, but purely by luck, I think. I have thought a lot about adult children and their parents, and I must admit to a bit of prickliness towards children who won't give up the dependency or the resentments. I know that dependency can work the other way, of course. But some adults do continue to project so much on to aging parents just at a time when the parents cannot take such pressure any longer. I have watched that and really been angered by it.

Family obligations can really be a terrible tyranny, to just about anyone.

[Nikita]

I can't tell half the time if I actually want to have kids or if it's hormones or whatever.  A lot of times when I see a parent with a baby a small voice in my head says, "Gee that looks nice.  Babies are cute."  But the other day I was out for a walk and I saw a young couple with their baby and that voice howled, "I WANT A BABY!  NOW NOW NOW!  BABY BABY BABY!"   :shock:  

It scared me, because I'm pretty sure I'll want a rugrat or two later on (like waaaaay later on) I sure as hell don't want one right now.

[Debra]

I never wanted to have kids then found myself unexpectedly pregnant at 18.

Unexpected because I had been told that I had a problem "in there" and wouldn't be able to get pregnant. HA

Looked into getting an abortion, but at the last minute decided not to.

Ended up with six kids. I'm never sure if I made the right choice. I can't imagine life without any of them mind. But I sometimes wonder if I had the right personality to be a parent.

I'm not a tough rules type, I teach them more about politics and empathy than getting ahead and networking, never got into the flash card thing, thought they learned best by doing and being.

And this is total thread drift ... sorry skdadl.

Last thing though I feel saddened when I see parents and non parents squaring off as if one is better or smarter or {insert pretension here] and I am so glad that the women here don't feel the need to do that.

Good on us!

[Toedancer]

Ended up with six kids.

Holy Shite Debra Six?  :shock:  :shock:  Not tough on rules type, ditto, and I think it's probably the only way with SIX!

My gf's who chose not to have children, feel much the same way as you do Lagatta, no desire, no regrets. I have never questioned what it is due to, I trust a person completely when they say they don't want kids; they know inside somehow.

The couples who chose not to, well they have a different take on it; I never inquire, soo personal and I am 'assuming' it is much harder, dunno really.

I have issues with my one step-son, which unfortunately are never going to go away, because I find him so disrespectful of women in general. He's also judgemental of his father and I think some deeper issues of resentment there. I guess that resentment would be me? Yeah.

I can't fix it, so don't even try. We are civil to each other, but there are times...................a misogynist (who denies that) with a 'helping others' profession, the worse combination.

[Morning Glory]

I did not have my baby until I was 41.  Until one week before I was pregnant I had no thought one way or the other about having a baby.  I had zero interest in other people's children, but for those I know well.  I find it very difficult to interact with children.  I still have very little interest in other people's kids and I'm not much of a coochy-cooer.  I think my husband and I would have been content not to have a child.  And I could have kept my sewing room.

But then one day, on a whim I bought one of those digital thermometers.  Started taking my temperature, plotted it on a graph in Excel and when the time was right, made the call and got pregnant.  One try.  Makes me wonder why I never got pregnant before.  (Actually was a couple of years ago but had a first term miscarriage.)

So I had almost lived my entire fertile life and never really thought about it.  I had no idea I could nurture a baby.  In fact, I was in therapy for much of my pregnancy and for some time afterwards because of my fears of not being able to parent.  I thought I should not have kids as I needed to break a cycle of mental illness/abuse that pervaded my family.  As it turns out, I really am quite nurturing.  I am glad that it happened.

I have to say though, that while in my 30's and working with primarily women who all drank water from the pregnancy water cooler and popped kids out weekly, I resented their "club".

[Gigi]

I also fall in the category of never having wanted children.  At this particular juncture I am also in the don't necessarily want the husband either, largely because I have become acutely aware of the fact that they haven't come up with a man who can deal with the idea that he will come second in someone's life.

We have this mythology that a man spends his time working for the benefit of his family - that it is this great selfless thing that has nothing to do with how he sees his place in the world.  We're just all supposed to pretend that.

When women do it, on the other hand, it's all about ego.  And we all know how wicked ego is in a woman.

So I am on this "you don't deserve me" kick because I know damned well that the men in my life wouldn't have been able to cope with it at the lowest point in my life when I was struggling with the start up and had to put 99% of my energy into getting it off the ground, and they would have had to take a back seat.  Even temporarily.

And kids?  Not even remotely part of the equation.

[skdadl]

Those periods can happen. I can think of times when it really would not have been a good thing for me to have a partner of any kind. Actually, I'm in one now, although not because of work, for a change.

Those periods can pass, too, though. And that's one longing I do know in the abstract, way stronger than a desire for children -- just the desire to curl up with another animal at the end of the day. That is a powerful animal need, and it doesn't go away. It is rough that so many of us spend so much of our lives without that natural comfort, but so many of us do, sooner or later.

[schooner]

In my 20's, when people asked, "Don't you want to get married?" "Don't you want to have children?"* I used to answer, "Yes. I have it all planned. I'll be married by 35, to a man who makes a good enough living so that i can stay at home, in the country, and adopt several children over 6. I won't have any babies; i don't like babies."

Of course, i was being facetious (except about the babies; i still don't like them. The grandkid is 2 1/2 now and starting to be fun.) But some naughty little godess must have been listening: at 34, i met Mr. Rightabouteverything, who already had two adopted children, aged 9 and 10. We were married before my next birthday. We did eventually move to the country and i got to stay home.

Superficially, this looks as if my dream had come true. In process, it wasn't anything like. And there have been moments - hell, there still are! hours, even - when i wished they would just go away and leave me alone.
But i didn't screw it up too badly.


(*Why do so many people feel they have a right to know this about a casual acquaintance?)

[anne cameron]

I don't understand why "everybody" wants to categorize "everybody else".  We had a music night a while back and some new people showed up.  They sort of tagged along with someone who comes once in a while.  I felt a bit invaded, I mean if you don't play, won't sing, and just want to yack yack yack why go to the music night?  Finally we quit attempting to play because the backdrop yap was just too much, loud guffaws and tiresome jokes and...no more did I pack away my treasure and over comes this woman who introduced herself and then asked me "and what do you do?"  I smiled my "I'm a bitch but you'll never know" charming smile and said "as little as possible, as poorly as possible", and she replied NO, really, what do you do?  I shrugged and said I"m retired.  Well, from what...so I bit the bullet and said "writer" and she brayed "I thought it was you!" and launched into her own resume as a journalist.  I knew I was on my way home!  It's the first thing people ask, after they ask your name.  As if what you DO is, somehow, the sum total of you.

As for kids...I had three, had three miscarriages, and adopted.  Then fostered.  Both my sons have kids; youngest son has three, oldest son has five.  Significantly, neither daughter has ever been the least bit interested in children.  Both have said they saw up close what single mom'ing it was like.  Both have said even an iron-bound contract drawn up by top corporate lawyers won't keep a man on scene and a positive influence for the time it takes to raise a kid.

I don't know my youngest sons children well.  They are city kids, I avoid the city and their mother and I have never been on the same page about anything.  She deeply resents me and I have no use for her at all.  My son is divorced from her, now, praise to all gods and goddesses, he's very involved in his kids lives, he has a new partner who is just great and she and I get along like two farts in a mitt and I talk to the grandkids on the phone, send letters, cards, holiday observances, send them money to buy the gifts they prefer but it's "duty", not close bonding.

My oldest sons firstborn is mentally ill, a constant heartache, I feel bereft, he was my Golden Boy and then he crashed, they're saying adolescent onset schizophrenia.  Prognosis is not encouraging.  Then there are my daughter-in-laws two older kids, I"m "grandma", we get along as well as anybody can get along with teens.  And then the grrrrrrrrrls.  Total joys.  Absolute bliss and they go home after a few fun hours!!

I've been sick (as a dog, as a pig, as a poisoned pup , as a...) for the past week and the grrrrrrrls came today "to make you feel better".  They only stayed long enough for freezies and a chocolate chip cookie and plenty of hugs.  Emily stroked my face and said "you poor old thing", and Joan stroked my arm and said "hope you feel better, you look awful.".

When my kids were small I could look ahead and have a good idea what their adult world would be.  It's worse, actually, than my blackest imaginings.  I can't even begin to picture what life will be for my grrrrls when they're grown.

I thought I was awake during the Vietnam horror, I thought I had fits watching the news , argued with the announcer, read newspapers, kept up to date.  Today I got a e-zine with an account of what really happened in Laos, and is still happening because of unexploded ordinance.  So what use is an International Court if something like that goes unchallenged?

It made me very sad.  Then I started to get very angry.  I prefer the anger, it's going to snap me out of this bloody illness quicker than any medicine!  I feel as if it is long past time for all of us to stand up and yell "J'accuse!" and do whatever we can to stop this madness.  I'm not sure what we can do but we have to try!

And as for kids no kids...I truly do believe what we all chanted when we were fighting for Choice "never again an unwanted child".  To me it is one of the foundations of feminism, if a woman chooses children, good on her!  If she chooses no children, good on her!  Want to stay at home and fulltime mom?  Good on you!  Want to go back to work?  Good on you.

And YES, we should have plenty of good, nourishing, free daycare available to all children.

It's a better place to put that government funding than to buy and use bullets and bombs.

Support our troops...bring the kids home again!

[lagatta]

Well, I think what people "do", whether or not they are paid for it, is one of the most significant facts about them.

Also have trouble with the concept of "choice", not in terms of childbearing of course, but the idea of people, almost always women, "choosing" to be a full-time, stay-at-home parent. That comes from centuries of exclusion of women and limiting us to the domestic sphere.

[brebis noire]

Well, I think what people "do", whether or not they are paid for it, is one of the most significant facts about them.

Also have trouble with the concept of "choice", not in terms of childbearing of course, but the idea of people, almost always women, "choosing" to be a full-time, stay-at-home parent. That comes from centuries of exclusion of women and limiting us to the domestic sphere.

It's a choice that is highly context specific. If you grew up in an era when it was not a choice in any meaningful way then I can see why you have trouble with the concept. But if you grew up in a time and place when childbearing was truly just another option out there, almost a career or lifestyle option in itself, then the centuries of exclusion feel a little abstract, just like a lot of other things. The desire to be a full-time, stay-at-home parent might not be widespread, but I don't think that makes it any less real for the people (women or men) who feel it. I saw a stat yesterday evening that encouraged me - I don't remember the exact figure or the way it was calculated, but stay-at-home dads are a lot more common today than they were in the 1970s.  

I think parents today might be lucky in one sense, in that there is a lot more fluidity to their roles and possibilities. That might be why a lot of people resist being defined by what they 'do'.