Author Topic: sometimes more things have happened in our military history  (Read 78396 times)

Holly Stick

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2007, 10:54:33 PM »
We stand around drinking wine and eating cheese, and take turns expounding on our current obsessions. :wink:  I'm not sure about the military historians though, maybe they prefer beer.
Economics is a human creation, borders are human creations and nature doesn’t give a damn about these things. - David Suzuki

Boom Boom

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2007, 11:41:29 PM »
Quote from: Holly Stick
We stand around drinking wine and eating cheese, and take turns expounding on our current obsessions. :wink:  I'm not sure about the military historians though, maybe they prefer beer.


Port and sherry are the liquids of choice for historians, so I've heard. Me, I'll have a beer, and I'll make it last an evening.

Croghan27

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2007, 05:43:55 AM »
when I lived in residence the lad in the next room, Billy, was a serious history major (honours and all that). Billy did not drink ... but I never really knew him to be completely straight in four years  :wink:

We had many discussions on the merits and modes of departing this reailty.

He ended up with a PhD - guess it is good for something.  :D
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

Croghan27

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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2007, 05:59:25 AM »
April 1, 1986: Canadian Forces Station Inuvik closes, reducing the number of Canadian military personnel in the Arctic by 40 per cent.

April 1, 1924: The RCAF officially comes into existence. Its first director is Wing Commander W.G. Barker, VC

April 1, 1915: First Canadian Division is placed under control of General Horace Smith-Dorrien’s Second British Army. Smith-Dorrien had last commanded Canadian troops during the South African War, 1899-1902.

I thought worthwhile to look at this W.G. Barker VC. Here are some details on his exploits.

(It is a quote, but when it goes into the quote function the letter size reduces so that I have trouble reading it, It is just in normal font etc.)

Major WG Barker VC, DSO, MC
"Major W. G. Barker distinguished himself as an observer and pilot on the Western Front, twice winning the MC. In Italy he added many more victories to his record and had the distinction of commanding a squadron of two-seater fighters.

Following his numerous decorations, Barker was transferred to England in the fall of 1918, to become an instructor. He requested to be attached temporarily to a fighter squadron on the Western Front to gain experience in the latest developments of air combat. On his last day of duty Maj Barker fought a combat mission which has become legendary in the history of air warfare. High above the lines he attacked and shot down one enemy machine, but was himself set upon by other formations of Fokkers, numbering in all about 60. Repeatedly wounded in the arms and legs, Barker fought them off and destroyed several of his opponents before crash landing in Allied lines. His heroic combat against such heavy odds won for Barker the VC as the culmination of a brilliant career."

Here is an interesting talk on Wing Commander Barker and the Sopworth Camel.
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

lagatta

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2007, 07:02:05 AM »
Never got into the port and sherry mode - isn't that more U of T? Remember, I was working on Italian labour and migration history. Bevvies and victuals rather obvious. Life histories always brought out some vino ("always on the vino, always on the spree" - like the D-Day Dodgers, but far less hazardous)... cheese, perhaps homemade sausages...
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Boom Boom

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2007, 11:32:01 AM »
My dad was a military historian and we entertained at home quite a bit, and port and sherry were always present. That would be the mid '50's to mid 60's. My mother was a dynamite host - witty, up on the news, and quite a social butterfly (I think that's the term). And she made great o'dourves.

Holly Stick

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2007, 11:33:41 AM »
I was going to write "cheap wine and cheese", but I didn't want to scare off lagatta. :wink:  

lagatta, several of my history professors studied immigration and ethnic groups, mainly as immigrants coming to western Canada.  The Glenbow Archives has some oral histories of Italian immigrants.  Were you studying them mainly from the other end, as emigrants leaving Italy?
Economics is a human creation, borders are human creations and nature doesn’t give a damn about these things. - David Suzuki

lagatta

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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2007, 12:00:37 PM »
Both. And beginning to study the reversal of the migration flow - that is, Italy becoming a net receiver of immigrants. The bloody country is still in denial about that - doesn't have any proper immigration policies.

The xenophobic Northern League (not only against actual foreigners but also Southern Italians) headed a town council somewhere in Veneto (Venice region) and was advertising in Argentina to attract immigrants of Italian-VENETO origin!

Don't worry about the plonk - not all of those old Italian guys make good wine; I've tasted plenty of plonk on both sides of the pond. And can't afford anything but plonk at this point. :(

But usually can't eat cheap cheese here because it tends to be from cow's milk, which I can't digest.

Back to topics relating at least periphally to military history: in Perugia this summer, happened on a new plaque on an antique building in the city centre which had been used as a prison for political opponents first by the local fascists, later by the Gestapo when the Nazis took over in 1943 after the fall of Mussolini and establishment of the puppet-state Republic of Salò. Long list of martyrs.

In the nearby town of Gubbio there is a shrine to the 40 martyrs who were shot as a reprisal by the Nazis - they were just ordinary townspeople, not partisans, Jews or anyone else fascists would have a particular reason to target. http://www.comune.gubbio.pg.it/40martiri/default.htm

Mausoleum of the Forty Martyrs (I'm keeping the original spelling and syntax...)

  It is a building in the shape of a chapel built by the commitee "pro forty martyrs", on the project of the Architect Pietro Frenguelli of Perugia, on the place where 40 innocent hostages were shot by nazist troops on the 22nd June 1944, for retaliation after an operation of the partisans.


Their names, their age:
Allegrucci Giuseppe, years 34
Baldelli Carlo, years 34
Baldoni Virgilio, years 38
Bartolini Sante, years 55
Battaglini Enea, years 20
Bedini Ferdinando, years 39
Bedini Francesco, years 50
Bellucci ubaldo, years 34
Cacciamani Cesare, years 52
Cacciamani Enrico, years 50
Cacciamani Giuseppe, years 19
Farabi Gino, years 39
Felizianetti Alberto, years 23
Gaggioli Francesco, years 17
Ghigi Miranda, years 30
Ghigi Zelinda, years 61
Lisarelli Alessandro, years 23
Marchegiani Raffaele, years 57
Mariotti Ubaldo, years 18
Migliarini Innocenzo, years 40       
Minelli Guerrino, years 27
Minelli Luigi, years 42
Moretti Franco, years 21
Moretti Luigi, years 22
Pannacci Gustavo, years 36
Paoletti Marino, years 30
Piccotti Antilio, years 41
Pierotti Francesco, years 40
Profili Guido, years 54
Rampini Raffaele, years 43
Rogari Nazzareno, years 50
Romanelli Gastone, years 17
Roncigli Vittorio, years 38
Roselli Luciano, years 23
Rossi Domenico, years 41
Rossi Francesco, years 49
Scarabotta Enrico, years 36
Sollevanti Giacomo,years 18
Tomarelli Luigi, years 61
Zizolfi Giovanni , years 23
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Croghan27

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2007, 08:26:05 PM »
The death of anyone when done by his fellow man is saddening - but:

Battaglini Enea, years 20
Gaggioli Francesco, years 17
Mariotti Ubaldo, years 18
Romanelli Gastone, years 17
Sollevanti Giacomo,years 18

is depressing.

Quote
For them no more the blazing hearth shall burn,
Or busy housewife ply her evening care:
No children run to lisp their sire's return,
Or climb his knees the envied kiss to share,
Gray's "ELEGY WRITTEN IN A COUNTRY CHURCH-YARD"
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

Croghan27

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2007, 06:35:02 AM »
April 2, 2003: Canadian navy ships Iroquois (2nd) and Fredericton (2nd) arrive in the Arabian Gulf. They join HMCS Regina as part of Task Force 151. The U.S.-led task force had been taking part in Operation Apollo in which Canadian vessels were responsible for the surveillance and inspection of any vessels in the area.


April 2-9, 1917: The intensive phase begins for the preliminary bombardment for the assault on Vimy Ridge. For seven days German positions are subject to more than a million artillery rounds. The bombardment not only smashes German defences, but prevents food, water and supplies from reaching the front.
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

lagatta

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« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2007, 07:13:29 AM »
Croghan, of course I also visited the Mausoleum housing the remains of the 335 Ardeatine Massacrevictims, once again from young teens - younger than those in Gubbio to seniors.

In Rome the Nazis had more "indesirables" (partisans/antifascists and/or Jews) to dispose of, but rounded out the figure for the reprisal by grabbing civilians - from their recent ally, eh? - on the street.

The only detailed list of all the names and birth dates of the people who were murdered is in Italian, but hey, it is names and birth dates: http://www.anfim.it/fosse/indexfosse.htm
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Croghan27

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« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2007, 07:28:21 AM »
It is my understanding the Rome, the cosmopolitin city, was not all the keen on persecuting Jews/gypsies/homosexuals.

The were not as 'activist' as Copenhagen, where one night they rounded up all the Jews and under Nazi noses, shipped them to neutral Sweden. No Jews from there was caught up on the shoa. But still. while they acquiesced to Nazi demands, it was with reluctance and foot dragging.
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

lagatta

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« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2007, 07:40:18 AM »
Yes, those people were rounded up by the NAZIS, not the local fascists. Obviously the fascists jailed and sometimes executed antifascists, but the mass murders of political enemies and especially of "inferior races" (Jews and Roma) occurred after Mussolini fell, under German occupation.

The Italian public was not activist though, (except for opposition figures) because fascism had already been in place for 20 years, destroying free political life and civic sense.

The above, though, must not be taken as any absolution of the Fascist regime's responsibility. Mussolini was not personally anti-semitic, but he was utterly craven in brown-nosing Hitler and enacting the so-called "racial laws".
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Caissa

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2007, 07:48:28 AM »
I wrote a paper on Italian fascist anti-semitism for a Ph.D. course 20 years ago. If memory serves me my conclusions were that Nazi and fascist anti-semitism had very different roots. In the Nazi variety, based on "blood" a "Jew" could never become a "German". The Italian variety, which was much more cultural, allowed for "Jews" to become "Italians." If I remember correctly one of the important works at the time was written by Meir Michaelis.

lagatta

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« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2007, 08:02:15 AM »
Strangely, I don't remember that work...

I don't quite understand, though, as Italian Jews were utterly integrated into Italian society, they spoke, looked and acted like everyone else. There were many fascists in their ranks, as well as prominent early antifascists such as Carlo Levi, the Rosselli brothers, Sion Segre...

I suppose logically, fascism would look askance at Jewish "cosmopolitanism"...
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

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sometimes more things have happened in our military history
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2007, 08:02:15 AM »

 

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