Author Topic: Communication  (Read 9548 times)

Debra

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2008, 07:28:45 PM »
Let me say that I am having quite an education as well. And may be found less than willing to don war gear and defend those I mistakenly thought to be friends.
“Damaged people are dangerous. They know they can survive.” —  Josephine Hart

skdadl

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2008, 08:12:03 PM »
Guys, I won't be up much longer (although I'll be here very early tomorrow). I'm sorry to have read this. I can't see where "passive aggressive" (insinuating complaints against someone else without explaining them straightforwardly and forthrightly) applies to Debra at all, but then, like everyone else, I don't understand a lot of what I've read.

I think it would be good for us all to remember that all kinds of things may be going on in anyone's life at any time, and not everyone always tells us what is happening.

Two things matter to me about this forum, as about other places I spend time. That Debra created it and maintains it is, I think, just stunning and magnificently generous, and beyond that it has been amazing to watch what she has taught herself over the last two years, almost all alone.

The other thing is the contributions from everyone else. These forums do not exist without the members -- they just plain don't. Someone has to set them up and run them, which can be very hard work (it's beyond me), but then they live or die because we contribute. We aren't here to fuss at one another or censor one another or boss one another; we're here to contribute to a forum that someone might want to read, and that means many voices, saying whatever the hell we want -- well, within certain boundaries, of course.

I don't want us moderated more tightly, and I don't want personal difficulties outed if the people directly involved don't want to do that. There are a lot of problems in the world that many lovely people here can speak to so well, and I hope that everyone will continue to feel free to do that. The clear voice. That's us.

lagatta

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2008, 09:12:06 PM »
Guys?
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

deBeauxOs

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2008, 09:34:10 PM »
Quote from: Debra
I find the labels of passive aggressiveness quite interesting.

This is what I said:
Quote from: deBeauxOs
fern hill - of all the people that I went toe-to-toe and nose-to-nose with, you are the one who interacted with me most directly and forthrightly. None of this passive-aggressive stuff between us, we dealt with our differences. We got into each other's face and came out of it with more respect for each other, I think.
I was speaking to fern hill, because she and I have had some spectacular divergence of opinions, we have called each other out, we have disagreed, and we have done so honestly and directly.  Though it was rocky at times, it did clear the air.

Debra - my post is not all about nor specifically about you.  It expresses my feelings about how communication around difficult issues is handled, and my observations about how that corresponds to my personal experience.  

Quote from: Debra
Is this supposed to be in the posting drunk thread?
Had you asked me directly if I was posting under the influence, I would have replied that no, I had not been drinking but it is interesting that you should imply that I was.  If you meant it as a joke, perhaps you could have included the appropriate emoticon.

kuri

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2008, 10:01:18 PM »
Hmmm... I dunno. The last time I interpreted passive-agressiveness was when a co-worker said to me, "Y and I can work well together because Y doesn't talk down to me." When I wasn't at all aware I had. She was clearly trying to imply that I had though, even though she wasn't talking about me at all but instead talking about Y. So I called her on it: "Do you feel that I have talked down to you? Can you tell me when exactly? I'm always open to getting feedback about my communication style, because when I have suggestions I just pass them on, often without thinking." (I'd only been there 2 days and had had only 1 conversation where I suggested a numbered format for a process in a set of guidelines instead of paragraph style.)

But yeah, I think I'd interpret someone telling me a positive thing about someone else in direct juxtaposition to myself as passive aggressive in the extreme.

The direct thing would have been for my co-worker to have accused me of talking down to her. Oh, but then she's actually have to name a concrete example. Those are hard.

vmichel

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2008, 10:37:30 PM »
Quote from: deBeauxOs
If the tone of posts takes on a dismissive edge, if individuals are unwilling to take responsibility for the effect their words have, the atmosphere sours. So I wonder: why should I bother saying anything of substance that could elicit an off-topic churlish comment?  Why should I bother sharing personal information?  And if the only “safe” comments are those that are shallow and/or jokey, what’s the point of coming here anymore?

I am happy with this board. Debra -- anything in my post that sounds critical is not directed at your moderation in any way. It is more a comment about the general atmosphere that has coalesced around all of us.

BUT -- I hear what you are saying in the above quote, dbo, and I often feel the same.

I don't propose any solutions, because I don't think this is a problem that needs to be fixed, per se. Certainly I am NOT calling for Debra or a moderator to do anything. But I did not want to let dbo's comment hang there without any validation, when it expresses something true to my experience as well. I hear what you are saying there, and you are not alone.

That's all.

lagatta

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2008, 11:23:02 PM »
Am I allowed to say that I am not happy with this board - or babble, or en masse?

Without singling out the moderators, of course. I think it has more to do with board dynamics - internet activism as a sub for realworld activism when it should be a media support like any other. Activism still comes down to bodies in streets, though it has always relied on available media and research.

I think there are objective reasons when such discussion boards turn nasty - hell, I've seen the same in boards on cycling, or travel.
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Toedancer

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2008, 01:10:40 AM »
Hi, y'all  :oops:  I have taken a break on the partying cus that's what I do.
I am curious about this, as I'm sure many are. Don't f with me about passive-aggressiveness and such shite, cuz it's bullshite as far as I can see anyway. And if I can't see anything else, then I shouldn't. Period. Yes L activism should be supported by media, but it isn't much, say la vie.  :)  If something has turned bad, then I want to know the motive, pure and simple. Give me the motive, if you can't then stfu. I don't know nuthing on moderation, I just know it is fair. If there is something else brewing in the air, then spell it out, plain for all to see. Gosh that was stark, I guess, but hell I don't get this, so spell it out plain for people to see. Then at least I could respond.
"Democracy is not the law of the majority, it's the protection of the minority." -Albert Camus 1913-1960

deBeauxOs

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2008, 01:59:02 AM »
TD, you want an example?  Here's one.  In this thread, I felt belittled, scolded and chastized because I expressed support for the Burmese women who conceived the idea behind that campaign.

Toedancer

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2008, 02:46:28 AM »
Yeah, I did too dbO, But it still dos't spell motive. I need to know what your specific probs are. cuz I still don't know what they ar exactly, pls forgive.
"Democracy is not the law of the majority, it's the protection of the minority." -Albert Camus 1913-1960

Mandos

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2008, 02:53:19 AM »
I dunno.  I think that was a legitimate political disagreement.  skdadl was saying that it was hard for her to agree with or support that campaign, and she listed the reasons why she disagreed with it and the thinking and attitude behind it.  I can see how someone might take it as confrontational, but there's no way to express a disagreement on that topic without sounding at least a little like you're scolding your interlocutor: nevertheless, you can't have that discussion without sounding like that, in my experience.

But, I mean, I don't think it was egregiously insulting, given the context, at least not the first page. This is a very sensitive topic for me too.  Some people quite unintentionally end up repeating Muslim-baiting slurs or mistakes out of context.  I hear it on my current employer's shuttle to work with my colleagues, and sometimes have to bite my tongue not to sound like I'm chastising them and talking down to them: because anything I say is going to sound like affronted scolding.

I don't want anyone to shed any tears for me, but when you're brown, objecting to slight and marginal and subliminal and unintentional bits of racism is a calculation about how likely the other side is going to feel like they've been accused of some crime, or at least having been given a Talking To.

ETA: (And it's even harder when the other side has at least a smidgen of a point.)

skdadl

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2008, 06:21:30 AM »
What I wrote to that thread was politics, straight politics, a pretty standard argument that I and others have made before and are going to be making again, not meant to be taken personally, although I see that it was. To a degree, we none of us have much control over these things: people are different, and there are going to be people who hate the way I write (you wouldn't be the first) or who want levels of personal engagement that I don't do and who are frustrated with me that I don't ... What can I say? Put me on your ignore list.

I think there is a real difference between being supportive, which I also think people here do really well, and a demand for more intense personal engagement that many people who come here simply do not want and will be driven away by (partly because it implies too much uniformity and conformity, or just too much fussy intensity).

There's nothing wrong with expressing a dissenting opinion, and all expressions of dissent don't have to be smoothed out through some kind of psychotherapy. I don't fully understand this discussion. I just hope that people will continue to feel free to bop in here and make positive contributions without worrying that someone else is about to tell them that they're using the wrong fork or something.

deBeauxOs

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2008, 10:58:28 AM »
Perhaps it's your choice of words, Mandos, but I've never felt diminished by your views on racism, how it plays out in the real world, and how it affects you and your 'brothers'.  In fact you speak rarely about it.  Your contribution to that thread would have been significant and appreciated.

skdadl, I was hoping that B'n'R would be a place that we could all learn from one another.  If lecturing is your chosen mode and you don't seem care if I read your words or not then then I guess that I'll use the ignore feature.

BTW, It's not about using the right or the wrong fork, it's more profound than that.  
Quote from: skdadl
There's nothing wrong with expressing a dissenting opinion, and all expressions of dissent don't have to be smoothed out through some kind of psychotherapy.
It may be psychotherapy to you; many people use it as an effective communication tool to acknowledge emotional static and to move it out of the way, thus getting to the essence of information that people want and need to share.

TD, I thought that I said what my "motive" is.  I'll try again. You don't know how many dozens of times in the last month I have read or heard or seen or done something that I wanted to share at B'n'R.  Sometimes I've even drafted a post just to scrap the whole impulse.  I have been told that the board software provides me with the means to participate in B'n'R without causing aggravation to myself or to others: I'll wear the blinders.

eta: Well that didn't work.  I got a message that said that I can't put a moderator or an administrator on 'ignore'.

anne cameron

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Re: The I-lost-my-temper-today challenge
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2008, 11:08:01 AM »
Well, colour me obtuse, I guess.  Or thick.  I didn't send any knickers and I thought the campaign was flakey but I can see why those who supported the campaign could be gob smacked and taken aback by the force of the scolding tone of the rebuttal.

None of us are "right" all of the time.  Nobody here has or should have the tee shirt which reads Queen Bee.  I'm not a man and I'm not Muslim, and I would be deeply enraged if someone was to put her used knickers over my head and face so I can't fully buy into the suggestion it's something the torture masters at Abu Ghraib thought up in order to break the spirit of Muslim men.  I suspect that particular bit of tree fort nastiness would work on any prisoner.

However, when a women's group in Burma asks women around the world to do something in support of women in Burma it isn't really up to me to quibble that they could have and should have picked some other way to... and it sure isn't up to me to tell those who respond and support the Burmese women that they are wrong and their politics are dodgy and ...so I can see why some people recoiled from the scolding and thought Big Nanny had been turned loose.

I'm all for clearing the air but , of course , that can only happen if everyone involved is interested in clearing the air.  Self protectiveness will not clear the air, of course, and I have no idea what we do about that.

anne cameron

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Re: General Bitching and Moaning
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2008, 11:44:21 AM »
Excuse me?

This means....what?

 

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