Author Topic: Proportional Representation  (Read 5550 times)

Croghan27

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Proportional Representation
« on: May 03, 2011, 05:18:37 PM »
FWIW
A response I put in at Dr. Dawg's. As close as I get to a blog.
 
I forgot the observation that everyone forgot the profound conservatism in New Brunswick. The Cons gain 6 seats from traditional Liberal ridings.
 
 Some random thoughts .....  If we had the American system then Harper would rule the House (here, the HofC)) the Senate (here, he just stacked it) and we altready have a damn near Presidential system. Our only saviour from that may be the traditional fractiousness of the Conservatives).
 
24% of adult Canadians voted for Harper ... but that means less that 24% voted of all other parties combined. Suck it up.
 
The Liberals lost because they did not offer an alternative to Harper - at least when Jack supportd Harper he got something for it. (like Douglas, Lewis, and Broadbent before him with various governments). The Liberals did not know how to make Opposition. 
 
One of the worst things that could have happened to the NDP is if it should have had to form a government. They just do not have the experience in place - the Cons did have experience, from the Mulroney years, and they still made juvenile mistakes. The learning curve would be too steep (see Rae in Ontario) A while as official opposition is not bad thing.
 
PR has twice been put out to the voters, in ON. and BC - and twice rejected, live with it. (for now)
 
While PQ voters may no long support Nationalists - they will, and always have, supported, 'Quebec Exceptionalism' - they just ain't like the RoC.
 
(response to a previous comment) The NDP is a "bourgeois liberal party "????  DUH!  When has it not been a bourgeois liberal party? Once the Regina Manifesto was dropped (and that was more bluster than blueprint) it became apparent that is what it is .... but it is the best we have - people can live and live well under democratic or modified socialism.
 
Now - the SOX won last night, but so did the (dreaded) Yankees ..... Talk to me no more of politics until the end of the month when Parliament gets to incite my indignation once again.
"Prayer without action is no prayer at all."
Mother Teresa.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 05:22:47 PM by Croghan27 »
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 05:47:13 PM »

PR has twice been put out to the voters, in ON. and BC - and twice rejected, live with it. (for now)
No.

Croghan27

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 08:31:41 PM »

PR has twice been put out to the voters, in ON. and BC - and twice rejected, live with it. (for now)

Not once in ON and once in BC?

No.
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 08:56:23 PM »

PR has twice been put out to the voters, in ON. and BC - and twice rejected, live with it. (for now)

Not once in ON and once in BC?

No.
I was responding to "live with it." No. If we're going to pursue the discussion, we should move it out of this thread.

Croghan27

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 09:30:42 PM »
from pogge
 
Quote
I was responding to "live with it." No. If we're going to pursue the discussion,
we should move it out of this thread.

I have no doubt I could learn a lot from you in any discussion, pogge - but it was not a substantial comment, it is qualified by the 'for now'. There are more urgent things to work on than PR.
 
Perhaps if one of the marvelous and talented moderators would move this to another thread we could continue. Although I suspect we are much closer in thought than it seems.
 
(Jays just lost to TB from a walk-on home run in the 9th.  :annoyed )
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 09:59:19 PM »
There are more urgent things to work on than PR.
 
We've just had a perfect example of our broken system. A party that 60% of the population has consistently rejected for five years has managed to squeak out 40% of the vote, with the breaks in just the right places, and now has absolute control of the agenda for four years. We have the living proof of the need for change right there in front of us and fresh in everyone's mind. This is the time to pound the point home.

There are always going to be a lot of issues clamoring for attention. Juggling priorities is always going to be a problem. But changing the electoral process is going to be a lengthy project. If we wait until just the right time to start to work on it, another federal election will be on us and we'll be no further along.

brebis noire

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 10:24:58 PM »
 :applause thanks pogge. I fully agree, and it's not even something I thought much about before this. I guess I hoped things would work out this time for the good, but apart from a few silver linings, it's obvious how this really isn't working atall.

Croghan27

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 10:52:10 PM »
Quote
We have the living proof of the need for change right there in front of us and
fresh in everyone's mind. This is the time to pound the point home.

To try to convince me of the righteousness of of PR is a waste of time - a classic preaching to the converted situation. It was first explained to me sometime around 1970 and I have agreed ever since. That is always somewhere in the background of any discussion of our electoral system for me.
 
That being said I must admit I am more upset by the insult to the main expression of our democracy, the Parliament, then lack of PR.
 
Yet even this is more of a philosophic position than one of physical substance. It is a fall out of the lack of a true democratic electoral process, but waddaya going to do about it: for me it is a once removed problem. The immediate reasons for the contempt of Parliament can be fixed (reveal the frick-fraken files) but that does not prevent it from happening again.
 
What effects me more immediately is the incompetent destruction of the federal finance system by Flaherty - that is going to cost me money, that it is going to impoverish some pensioners and those in marginal economic circumstances. To relegate this a secondary considerate in order to push for a different electoral system would be to be betray a lot of people. What effects me is having troops in some mid-Asian country, this has to be dealt with, what effects me is foolish military spending. These are going to impact directly on me and on Canadians - I fear more than most Canadians know. You want to push - push on these things, keep PR constantly in the background, it is important but not a priority for living.
 
A Medicare drug plan, a universal dental plan, do these and Canadian will give you PR.
 
Some time ago Newfoundland had a problem - no money and Britain was withdrawing support. About 1937 they applied to the US to be made a protectorate - the US turned them down. Once Smallwood came to power (he had been off in Boston being a communist)  he held a referendum about joining Canada. It failed. He held another until finally, in '49 they became province #10. (A lot of my family is from NL and one of my first memories is my father and uncle explaining it to me ..okay to my brothers, but I was there.) :popcorn  Between plebiscites Joey went about providing a reasonable government for Newfoundland - indeed, he became so popular what when he tried for Canada again, it succeed.
 
The initial referenda were held - PR in one version or another, lost. Put it on the back burner for now - no the question is not solved. Take the energies and use than on the immediate. In fact, I suspect that any trust built up by attempts to deal with current problems will aid the electoral question.
 
Quote

 If we wait until just the right time to start to work on it, another
federal election will be on us and we'll be no further along.

Bad news here ... I predict we will have another federal election using our FPTP system - no matter what. No support for any change is discernible in the party that formed the government in the present system.
 
Make it 'part of the mix' - but do not fixate upon it, do not let other responsibilities slide in the thinking that all will be made right if we only had PR.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 11:00:33 PM by Croghan27 »
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 07:42:25 AM »
Quote
We have the living proof of the need for change right there in front of us and
fresh in everyone's mind. This is the time to pound the point home.
What effects me more immediately is the incompetent destruction of the federal finance system by Flaherty - that is going to cost me money, that it is going to impoverish some pensioners and those in marginal economic circumstances. ... What effects me is having troops in some mid-Asian country, this has to be dealt with, what effects me is foolish military spending. ...
 
A Medicare drug plan, a universal dental plan, do these and Canadian will give you PR.
Where's climate change? It should be at the top of your list because it might just kill us all.

But I think you have a chicken and egg problem here. The Conservatives have already demonstrated a willingness to stack the deck in their own favour by fair means or foul. They've used millions in taxpayer dollars for self-serving advertising and paid Jason Kenney a cabinet minister's salary to campaign virtually 52 weeks a year. They've stacked the senate with blatant partisan hacks to a degree even the Liberals didn't dare to and have already used the upper chamber to thwart the will of the Commons. They've dabbled with voter suppression and I expect to see more of it. And they've gamed the campaign finance system and now intend to revamp it so it gives them an even bigger advantage. It seems to me that if you settle for the status quo on governance issues, you'll never get the change you want to see on anything else.

By all means work the other issues. Hammer out positions and let the politicians who aren't completely lost causes know that there's a constituency waiting to support them if they embrace those positions. But if you're basing all of your concerns on the premise that in four years it will be the NDP that squeaks out the next majority government, I think you're in for a rude awakening. I think we need to convince anyone who wants to continue drawing a paycheque as an elected representative that the current system is unacceptable. (And remember, electoral reform is an issue that cuts across the usual ideological lines. See Coyne, Andrew.)


pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 08:15:47 AM »
Does anyone have a sense yet of how influential Leadnow may end up being? Electoral reform is one of their hot button issues.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 08:16:03 AM by pogge »

lagatta

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 08:20:09 AM »
I think Croghan was just being realistic about his personal situation. I'm some years younger than him but still, as a boomer, I am far less likely to be killed by climate change that younger people are. However Croghan does have children and a little grandson, who does stand to be affected by it.

The ecocidal nature of the Harper petrocracy is obviously bad for the climate, but also bad for international relations - Canada has lost its (not always accurate) image as a country that protected the environment. The scope of ongoing environmental destruction is a source of deep shame.
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Toedancer

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 09:45:40 AM »
Does anyone have a sense yet of how influential Leadnow may end up being? Electoral reform is one of their hot button issues.

I'm not sure, I was hping someone cld tell me. I did send the Open Letter to Next Parliament to my own MP, whom was re-elected, as well as the other party runners.  It was my daughter who sent me the link, so it is getting to the kids. I really like We Are The Majority to PMSH.
"Democracy is not the law of the majority, it's the protection of the minority." -Albert Camus 1913-1960

pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 10:10:43 AM »
I think Croghan was just being realistic about his personal situation.
I understand that. I'll be 60 this year and I can identify with the concern. But my point is that we could wait four years and find ourselves with another Conservative majority if we don't push back against a system that doesn't properly represent us. I don't expect the current government to do much for pensions. The people who really run that government aren't too worried about their retirements. And I don't expect them to stop jumping on the bandwagon every time the White House wants to bomb somebody new. Lather, rinse, repeat.

pogge

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Re: Proportional Representation
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 10:34:21 AM »
PS: What about provincial governments? As was discussed here not too long ago, they have a lot of impact on our lives. And if you win two or three of them over it builds up momentum that's harder to ignore.

Gotta go. On the road 'til tomorrow some time.

brebis noire

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