Author Topic: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog  (Read 11229 times)

skdadl

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32874
    • View Profile
    • http://www.pogge.ca
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2006, 04:54:10 PM »
Since the same problem came up on pogge, I actually did look up one of Juan Cole's posts on the topic of Ahmadinejad and translation: Juan Cole goes after Christopher Hitchens.

Luke

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
    • View Profile
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2006, 05:56:24 PM »
"Your daily paper or TV network in North America won't tell you that, since the game here is demonization"

He's important for propaganda as was Saddam (neither one of whom I like). Also, remember the cooked up story of Jews in Iran having to wear the Star of David. It started in one (Canadian?) paper and then made its way around the world. When it was exposed as a hoax not a peep was heard in the western press.

Quote
... In June 2006, Ayatollah Khamenei issued an official declaration stating that Iran agrees with the Arab countries on the issue of Palestine, meaning that it accepts the 2002 Arab League call for full normalization of relations with Israel in a two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus. The timing suggests that this might have been a reprimand to his subordinate Ahmadenijad, whose inflammatory statements are given wide publicity in the West, unlike the far more important declaration by his superior Khamenei. ....


http://www.israelblog.org/1155100911/index_html

pogge

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4285
    • View Profile
    • Peace, order and good government, eh?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2006, 06:52:46 PM »
Quote from: Luke
It started in one (Canadian?) paper ...


The National Post which did eventually run a non-apology apology of sorts. I believe it ran on page 2. You could always search Antonia Zerbisias' blog if you want more info. She covered it extensively.

Luke

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
    • View Profile
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2006, 12:49:10 PM »
You are correct, although I could have sworn it was started by one of the Black (the other one; not Conrad) Press papers, picked up by a couple of other papers before the Jerusalem Post printed it.

From there the National Post picked it up and all of a sudden the canard had credibility and was recycled all over the world. (Gazzillion links on google news)

I wish I could remember what piece that was.

For the Star of David story:
http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/another ... ation.html

Herr Magoo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2297
    • View Profile
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2006, 01:24:29 PM »
Quote
Since the same problem came up on pogge, I actually did look up one of Juan Cole's posts on the topic of Ahmadinejad and translation: Juan Cole goes after Christopher Hitchens.


Interesting, but my post was actually in regard to him denying the holocaust, and nothing in your link mentions that.  What's more, I didn't mention anything that your link discussed.

What about the holocaust denial?  Do we agree that that was no mistranslation?
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

skdadl

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32874
    • View Profile
    • http://www.pogge.ca
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2006, 01:54:45 PM »
I don't remember the specific passage you're referring to. Can you get me the quote?

Herr Magoo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2297
    • View Profile
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2006, 02:05:11 PM »
Quote
TEHRAN, Iran — Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Wednesday that the murder of 6 million Jews by Nazi Germany during World War II was a myth, another in a series of comments that have drawn international condemnation


This is from USA Today, but if you don't trust it, Google "Ahmaninejad" and "fairy tale".  I got ten pages worth.
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

skdadl

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32874
    • View Profile
    • http://www.pogge.ca
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2006, 05:08:45 PM »
Before I do this, I refer people to my comment above.

On the one hand, I don't mostly do ritual denunciations because I think they are egotistical, self-righteous, and a waste of breath and time, and I was brought up to recognize that the world is not about me. If you want confessions, denunciations, or pledges of allegiance, don't come to me.

On the other, I think I've made it clear that I'm no fan or supporter of President Ahmadinejad or of the ayatollahs either, and I've written often enough to the subject of Zahra Kazemi and others persecuted and murdered in Iran, as, sadly, I expect I will be doing again.

My point was that my personal opinions and even the specific political causes I support re Iran are beside the point in this context. It is awful that Zahra Kazemi has already been tortured and murdered. It will be worse to see thousands and thousands of other Iranians blown to bits if the American ideologues have their way. For that reason above all, I believe it is important to regard the duly elected president of Iran as something more than a thing that goes bump in the night. There are reasons he has ended up as stupid and brutal as he is, but there are also many signs that he -- and his superiors, especially Khamenei, who often differs with him, and the still active opposition in Iran -- can and should be taken seriously as a negotiating partner.

I have no faith at all that the current regime in the U.S. will adopt that stance without immense pressure from other countries in the West. That is my point.

To Ahmadinejad's speech mentioning the Holocaust last December:

You say "fairy tale"; the BBC  says "myth." Elsewhere, Wikipedia says "legend."

He also said, by the BBC's translation:

Quote
"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

Quote
The president also returned to his earlier theme that Europe should shoulder the responsibility for a Jewish state.

"If you [Europeans] committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price?

"This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the US, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country," he said.

So the fool is playing with two contradictory things at once: Holocaust minimization, and then a charge that Europeans are responsible for the Holocaust that he none the less questions. To me, the minimization is as bad as denial because an obvious political game, but to say that people have turned an event into legend or myth is not to deny that it happened. Maybe he picked up that trick from Irving; maybe he is just a rough, primitive guy who has heard the gossip and is retailing it.

What should matter to us is that he was immediately and openly challenged in Iran -- by his predecessor Khatami, whom he had just defeated electorally but who still has an influential voice, by scholars, and by the one Jewish MP in the Majlis:

Quote
Although he took on Mr Ahmadinejad about the Holocaust, Mr Motamed supports the president on other issues, including the standoff with the US, Europe and Israel over the country's nuclear programme. "I am an Iranian first and a Jew second," he said.

He acknowledged there were problems with being a Jew in Iran, as there were for the country's other minorities. But he said that Iran was relatively tolerant. "There is no pressure on the synagogues, no problems of desecration. I think the problem in Europe is worse than here. There is a lot of anti-semitism in other countries."

...

Nasser Hadian-Jazy, associate professor of political science at Tehran University and a childhood friend of the president, said Mr Ahmadinejad was keen to put the Holocaust row behind him.

"I asked him, 'Are you anti-Jew?' He said, 'I am not.' I said, 'Why not go to a synagogue to express regret for what Iranians have done to Jews?' ... He said, 'I have another idea, a better idea.'

"He will do something to show he is not anti-Jewish. I hope he will do it soon. He will make a gesture to the Jews in Iran and that has implications for Jews elsewhere. What he will say is very important and will remove the idea that he is anti-semite."


To me, our problem is not Ahmadinejad and any influence we could have on him, since we can have none, clearly. Our problem is making sure that our own country is not overwhelmed by the yahoos with a heavy sense of white man's burden, who are more interested in proclaiming the personal offence they take at furriners' primitive notions than in recognizing both their -- our -- responsibility for the current mess and the desperately important task of working our way out of it without further mass slaughter.

Mandos

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5759
    • View Profile
    • http://politblogo.typepad.com/
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2006, 06:58:38 PM »
Hear, hear, skdadl, re ritual denunciations.  When they ask for one, they are attempting to exert dominance over you.

Let me give folks some background on Holocaust denial in the Muslim world: like it or not, Ahmedinejad was simply giving voice to a very common and popular local sentiment.  This doesn't mean that I condone it: but it is stupid not to understand it in its context.

In the West, the Holocaust is associated with very local historical events, and hence the Holocaust is a major trauma.  The Muslim world's only contact with the Holocaust as such is the creation of Israel---and only that because the Muslim world knows that the public guilt over it in the West is used as one of the major justifications for the one-sided support for Israel.  The Holocaust---and most of "WW"II---are not "real" to the bulk of the Muslim world, unlike WWI, which is important.  This leads to two strands of logic which are very easy paths to go down:

1. Since the creation of Israel was an unacceptable act of aggression (as it is seen near-unanimously), and the West justifies it to itself via the Holocaust, then the promulgation of the Holocaust must be yet another layer of Western aggression against Muslims.  I call this "instrumental denial."

2. Since the West justifies the unjustifiable---as they believe---creation of Israel via the Holocaust, and the Holocaust is a matter of Western guilt, why don't Western nations pay the price in land that they've made the Arabs pay?  The implication being that since they don't, they don't really feel that the guilt is theirs, and if they don't really feel that the guilt is theirs, then do they (Westerners) actually believe in the Holocaust---or that the Jews are even owed anything?

These things that Ahmedinejad says (as I've encapsulated in 1 and 2) are not contradictory---they depend on each other.  

Lastly, you don't have to like it.  You don't have to agree with it or believe in it.  I don't.  I have enough reason to believe that the Holocaust could have happened, and that alone is very nearly sufficient enough for me to believe that it did, let alone the tales-from-people's-grandparents that I've heard.  I do believe that it's justified for Muslims to believe that Muslims have paid in land and suffering for the real sins of Europe.

But most importantly, one cannot exclude dialogue with---or honest readings of---Ahmedinejad and others because they follow a logic which you may abhor, because that logic defines the reality of the Muslim world, and there is a component to it whose truth is likewise undeniable: who paid?

Herr Magoo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2297
    • View Profile
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2006, 08:01:47 PM »
For the record, since I brought up the Holocaust denial, I'm not asking anyone to swear any oaths.  But it did seem to me that Skdadl, by linking to this guy's blog (and wishing him well) was giving some measure of endorsement to him and I wondered if that will play out well.  As noted, there's nothing overly offensive on the blog right now, but then it's how many days or weeks old at this point.  Like another poster above, I suspect it's just a matter of time.

And Mandos:  doesn't any objective history override the assumption that the Holocaust is an Israel-related fabrication?  I know one cannot simply trust that a book one picks up speaks the truth, but have there not been enough bodies exhumed and "showers" photographed, and survivors interviewed and meticulous German records tallied to count for something?  

I know that the Holocaust isn't the history of the Middle East any more than the history of the Middle East is the history of Europe, but wouldn't the facts trump that?  As a quick example, the various pharaohs of Egypt certainly weren't European nor part of Europe's history, but I think most Europeans would accept accounts of the various pharaohic dynasties as fact based on the physical evidence of them.  How could they deny the existence of the Pharaohs, or their pyramids and monuments, when their library is just down the street, and photos are theirs for the looking?

It seems to me that using one's powers of logic to decide that there must not have been a Holocaust, in the face of generous evidence that there was indeed a Holocaust, just doesn't make sense somehow.
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

Mandos

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5759
    • View Profile
    • http://politblogo.typepad.com/
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2006, 09:46:11 PM »
So, like, you realize that your question is just a restatement of another really common question: why do people often believe things about their leaders/oppressors/overlords/enemies that aren't really supported by the facts?  To narrow it down: in the service of something that is.

Toedancer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13966
    • View Profile
Re: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blog
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2010, 12:33:42 AM »
I have no idea why, but as I searched for an appropriate place I landed here for some reason. Say la vie. So......
A US antiwar organization says it has been targeted by the government because it wants US troops to immediately return from Afghanistan and Iraq.

Quote
ANSWER members say they have been hit with $7,500 worth of fines for putting up anti-war posters like "US Out of Afghanistan and Iraq Now!" across Washington DC.

Last minute donations

The FINES

Of course this is really about UPwith Israel and DOWN with Palestine. Sheesh.

Join us on Saturday, March 20 in Washington, D.C., San Francisco, Los Angeles and other cities to say: FREE PALESTINE – END COLONIAL OCCUPATION FROM IRAQ TO AFGHANISTAN AND EVERYWHERE – END U.S. AID TO ISRAEL!
"Democracy is not the law of the majority, it's the protection of the minority." -Albert Camus 1913-1960

 

Return To TAT