Author Topic: 9/11 thread  (Read 23691 times)

brebis noire

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9/11 thread
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2006, 11:32:52 AM »
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I wonder if proximity might have any bearing on this.

Like, North Americans being most interested in what goes on in North America, South Americans being most interested in South American events, and so on, rather than some inchoate "hatred of the brown races"?

I've heard it suggested that one of the reasons why some Middle Eastern countries have a loosey-goosey understanding of the Holocaust is because it's quite simply not a part of their local history.  And yet, I'll bet they mourn things we have no idea even happened.


I don't think proximity is an adequate explanation. In fact, I think this type of approach brings it round to sentimentalism again. If it's about geographic or cultural proximity, then why do we care more about Jewish Holocaust victims than cultural (and actual) genocide victims in North America? I grew up with Indian and Métis kids, but I didn't know anybody who was Jewish.

Some people will not mourn their own Grandpa, but will shed a tear for Princess Diana.

Why does it seem like we identify as much or more with abandoned dogs and cats in Hurricane Katrina than with poor black and white people who have been homeless since then?

k'in

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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2006, 12:33:14 PM »
I would say it probably hurts a lot more if Grandpa lives with you (or you spend a lot of time together) as opposed to living thoiusands of miles away.  Having someone as part of your day to day existence pass away is going to be tough, not just because you cared about them but for all the little day to day things you no longer share and now they are not there. The Princess Diana love-in, which I couldn't relate to at all (except that she died young) seems to be part of the whole "grief culture".  Maybe people don't get enough chances to be emotional in real life or something so they get to feel as if their part of something, I dunno.  A kid got murdered at a local high school and while that was obviously horrible for his friends and family, the school brought in grief counselors for the entire student body.  Then there are the teddy bears and flowers left at murder, accident scenes.  Several kids I grew up with got killed (drinking & driving-it was a big issue at the time).  Things were different.  We dealt with it by attending visitation, talking to peers.
If you include children with cats & dogs, it's known that newspapers sell better than those that feature adults.  I searched but couldn't find the thread here but it's about how most people really deep down don't feel that they would ever become homeless, that they would come up with something.  No matter how spoiled a cat is, they are limited in their optiions to what we allow.  A 1 year old can't grab the house keys & take off on your bicycle.  They are dependent and that's why not a day goes by that I don't think of the torture endured by Randall Dooley at the hands of his parents.

Herr Magoo

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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2006, 01:36:19 PM »
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I  would say it probably hurts a lot more if Grandpa lives with you (or you spend a lot of time together) as opposed to living thoiusands of miles away.


Fair enough.  Mind you, I've seen many people online express grief and concern for the women who fell victim to Robert Pickton, even though I'm pretty sure that the people expressing concern never met any of these women, don't live near the pig farm, etc.

Any explanations?  Remembering of course that men and women are murdered, daily, all around the world.  What made Pickton's killings any different??  And more to the point, should those who express grief for Pickton's victims try to be a little more global in choosing a stranger to mourn?
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brebis noire

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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2006, 01:47:25 PM »
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Any explanations?  Remembering of course that men and women are murdered, daily, all around the world.  What made Pickton's killings any different??  And more to the point, should those who express grief for Pickton's victims try to be a little more global in choosing a stranger to mourn?


I don't know *who* exactly you're pointing at. Individuals, groups, governments, or the media?

I can only speak for myself when I say that I feel as sad and enraged about what happened to the women at the Polytechnique, as the women in East Van and the ongoing torture and murders of women in northern Mexico (ciudad Juarez and Chihuahua region). The only difference is that I am reminded about the Pickton murders more often.  I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying.

There's only so much grief, anger and sadness that an individual can handle in a day, a week or a lifetime.

In other words, or to get to my point - I think you're missing the point, just like most North Americans did after 9/11. It was a tragic opportunity for us to identify with people who have to deal daily with more death and destruction than we'll ever know (I'm thinking specifically of refugee camps right now) but instead our governments have turned it around and made it into an excuse for another war.

anne cameron

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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2006, 02:29:32 PM »
Right on, Brebis Noir.  I feel badly for the people who died in the WTC, not only the plane crash incident, but the previous one with the rental truck full of explosives in the basement...and I feel badly for the people who get blown to grue in market places, cafe's, dance halls, etc., around the world.  I also feel more than just "badly" for the torture victims who were killed by Pinochets goons, and the hundreds slaughtered in carpet bombings and ... but at some point my sadness clicks off.

Someone mentioned Princess Diana and the cult of loudly expressed public grief.  That one missed me completely.  I don't care if she died in an accident or if it was part of some deranged plot.  And I doubt I'd shed a tear if Paris Hilton went or..so is that "class" unconcern or...?

I think I understand why WTC was targeted, it was an international symbol of unrestrained capitolism and much of the "business" which went on in it supported the Amerikkan imperialist expansion.  If I'd been planning a blow against Amerikkkan military and economic aggression I'd have focused on WTC, too.  I like to think I'd have sent in the planes at night but ...

The aim of terrorism is to spread fear, to sap the will of the people and erode the compliant acceptance of a system which is doing terrible things to poor people around the world.  And the more Homeland Security froths and spits, the more TV films and retrospectives of the horror, the more fear is spread so the corporate media is actually doing Osama's job for him.  

I'm not afraid of Osama bin Laden.  I don't expect him to ride his horse in over the Tahsis road.  I don't think he or his supporters are going to demand my grandchildren convert to Islam.  But I'm afraid of Amerikkka and the very real possibility of all out world wide war.

There is so much I take for granted.  I try not to take my lucky life for granted but I know, and more than merely know, I accept that if I get thirsty there is the best water in the world available from my kitchen tap.  I probably waste more water in a day than some people see in a week.  I try not to be careless, but... similarly, I know that even if my credit union phones to say I'm going into overdraft I'll sleep warm and dry tonight and have food tomorrow and all I have to do is wait for my old age pension cheque to be automatically deposited...

I try not to take it all for granted.  My kids tease me that I give away their "inheritance" each time I respond to natural disaster by sending a donation.  I tell them nobody left me an inheritance, they shouldn't expect one from me.  That we can even joke about such things shows how blase we are about other peoples raw misfortune.

 We have the luxury of having the time and energy to think about a bunch of things other people don't ponder because they are fully absorbed in trying to keep themselves and their babies alive and fed.  We have leisure time when people in Haiti fall into exhausted sleep because they only make 30 cents an hour working at bone wracking jobs and that means they have to work twelve and fourteen hours a day just to be able to afford to feed their children.

Damn, but we are so lucky!  Nobody is pulling out our fingernails or sending electric current through our genitals or doing what Pinochet's goons did..one of their favourites was to ram a funnel device into the vagina of a woman and then send in a starving rat.  Takes a particular mentality to think that one up, and another kind of mentality to make damn sure the news of that kind of sick shit doesn't get widely spread to the public.  We saw some little bit of what happened to the men in Abu Ghraib but the information about what happened to the women is classified.  Gee, I wonder why!!

Boom Boom

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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2006, 03:01:00 PM »
On 9/11 I was in Mutton Bay, on the Lower North Shore of Quebec, preparing for a flight back to my home in Harrington Harbour, when I heard that all aircraft in Canada had been grounded.  I was staying in a mobile home without television or radio, and I had to walk over to a friend's house to find out what was going on. Then I saw the news with the constant replay of planes crashing into the towers and the collapse and New Yorkers fleeing for their lives. I remember thinking, "holy shit!".  I was stranded until midnight, when I hopped onboard a fishing boat that was headed my way, with a load of other aircraft passengers that had been similarly stranded. Got home about 2 am, watched the news right through the night and the next day. I also remember thinking uh oh, this means war.

k'in

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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2006, 03:02:11 PM »
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Any explanations? Remembering of course that men and women are murdered, daily, all around the world. What made Pickton's killings any different?? And more to the point, should those who express grief for Pickton's victims try to be a little more global in choosing a stranger to mourn?


To be honest, I "was" bothered by the Pickton murders (& no, I don't personally know any of the victims).  It wasn't grief so much really as anger and an affront to justice.  Women were disappearing and the "authorities" didn't want to do much because they weren't the "right" class of citizen.  Serial killers always get more coverage due to their randomness and rarity.

I remember 9/11 vividly.  It wasn't really obvious when it was over, as the news kept coming that day. Media coverage matters. The Tsunami that happened on boxing day became a much bigger deal than most other natural disasters probably because people were locked in for the holidays and there wasn't much else on TV.

I remember "The Onion" did that cover shortly after 9/11 about  (I'm paraphrasing)"when can all this terrorism be over so we can get back to Britney Spears, Chandra Levy, other trivial stuff" .  Sad but there's probably some truth there.  People just don't want to know until it's smack in the middle of the world's #1 media market and they're forced to look.  Sad too since if more people had grasped the global picture the Project For A New American Century crowd might not have brought us to the mess we face now.

Herr Magoo

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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2006, 03:16:18 PM »
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I remember "The Onion" did that cover shortly after 9/11


I think the Onion was so incredibly spot-on it was eerie.  When nobody else was so much as even whispering about 9/11 (the way some people will whisper "Cancer" so as not to invite any) the Onion was poking a stick at some of the silliness.  My two favourites, one from September, the other from about January, were:

"Unsure of what to do, Area Woman bakes flag-shaped cake"

and

"Area Man wonders when it's OK to remove flag from car antenna"

I think both spoke brilliantly to the ideas that the U.S. public had no emotional preparation for any of this, that jingoism and patriotism would step up to fill that void, and that ultimately, the citizens didn't really even know how to do that, and would need plenty of coaching.  So much seemed to be "expected" around that time, and nobody seemed to really know how to fill those expectations properly, so they substituted the Star Spangled Banner and hoped nobody would notice they were mumbling the words.
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'lance

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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2006, 03:22:19 PM »
Quote from: gunnar gunnarson
... my own stumbling curmudgeonly inadequately caffeinated way.


Hey, gunny, yer workin' my corner, there.

I suppose this place is big enough for two of us, but... I'm just saying.

lagatta

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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2006, 04:36:22 PM »
Meanwhile, at the other end of the continent, thousands of Chileans marched through Santiago to commemorate "their" 9-11, in 1973:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elmun ... 09-11.html
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

skdadl

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9/11 thread
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2006, 05:31:07 PM »
Wot k'in said about the Pickton murders, and the steady disappearance of women in Edmonton, or on the Highway of Tears, or or or ...  

In all those cases, part of the problem was that we weren't getting much coverage of any of them for a long time -- and furthermore, only Pickton has become a household name. Gee: why should that be? Could that have something to do with class or race or drugs or or or ... ? The story only got interesting when we had a rilly rilly twisted guy to look at?

And besides, maybe not everyone feels as physically vulnerable as I do, but I will react in my guts to any vivid impression of nightmarish pain -- if a reporter puts me in that house in Qana where all the children died, or describes scenes of torture as anne just did, I'm there, I'm too much there.

There has to be a time to empathize, to grieve, to feel things on the pulse, but then there also has to be a time to calm the mind and begin to think usefully, start making the practical contributions that could change things ... maybe ... I wish, eh?   :(

Bacchus

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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2006, 09:48:16 PM »
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I don't think proximity is an adequate explanation. In fact, I think this type of approach brings it round to sentimentalism again. If it's about geographic or cultural proximity, then why do we care more about Jewish Holocaust victims than cultural (and actual) genocide victims in North America? I grew up with Indian and Métis kids, but I didn't know anybody who was Jewish.


Thats actually an excellant example of proximity. There is so much focus by various jewish organizations with 'never again' and so many people here that were involved in the fight there (plus a exodus of refugees, jewish and otherwise) that it has proximity to us. Unlike the Roma, homosexuals, catholics, labour unionists, communists, physically/mentally handicapped and other groups similarly targeted by the Third Reich and its allies
When you're on your own
When you're at a fork in the road
You don't know which way to go
There's too many signs and arrows
You haven't laughed in a while
When you can't even fake a smile
When you feel ashamed...
The uniform don't make you brave

Américain Égalitaire

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9/11 thread
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2006, 11:15:52 PM »
I had just dropped my son off to school when the morning dj  of the radio station I was employed at then said reports had been received of an airplane crashing into the world trade center.

I told my son I'd better get in to work but that someone had a heart attack piloting a Cessna (why did so many of us think "Cessna?").

As soon as I ran up to the newsroom and saw the gash in the north tower I knew no Cessna could make that hole.

And when the second tower got hit and it became apparent what was happening my only thought was the US would extract a terrible revenge for this and probably drag the whole world into war.

The thoughts about the inevitable move toward a domestic police state came a little later.

I went to bed that night knowing life would never be the same again for the whole world.

pogge

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9/11 thread
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2006, 12:39:47 AM »
Olbermann to Bush on 9/11 at Crooks and Liars.

link here

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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2006, 01:05:00 AM »
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If I'd been planning a blow against Amerikkkan military and economic aggression I'd have focused on WTC, too. I like to think I'd have sent in the planes at night but ...


Maybe a more cool fireball at night, but night is not as friendly to the camera, and that day was made for TV.

 

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