Author Topic: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest  (Read 2181 times)

Mandos

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skdadl

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Re: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 12:26:32 PM »
Two observations about these clashes:

Any women who come out to protest the law have to be pretty brave, which is going to cut back somewhat on their numbers, although it sounds as though there are enough of them and they have some support from men and families.

In the words of the counter-protesters, you can hear the political fear and hostility to the invasion/occupation/war/whatever it is we're imposing on the country right now. You don't have to agree with them to understand the anger.

Croghan27

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Re: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 03:49:01 PM »
The claims of:
Quote
"We don't want foreigners interfering in our lives. They are the enemy of Afghanistan,"
sound like the Canadian bots claiming that "'Taliban Jack' does not support our troops' - or Glenn Beck trying to foist upon anyone who will listen that Obama is a closet socialist.

Something fundamental in their belief system has been attacked - the worst thing they can think to do is portray themselves as the 'real' Afghani/Canadians/Americans and to deviate anywhere from their chapter and verse is subversive. Doing that is so much easier than confronting the actual question logically and rationally that it opens the door for emotional explosions.
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

skdadl

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 04:33:11 PM »
Well, but, um, Croggy: the situations are fundamentally different. Nobody is threatening the real lives of fundamentalist wingnuts here. Nobody has invaded their country or bombed them or killed at least one of their relatives or forced them to live in ways they don't choose.

Why is it so hard for North Americans to grasp what imposed imperialist cultural deformation does to real live people?

Stupidest question of the century: "Why do they hate us?"

Gee. Do you think it could have something to do with the fact that we invade them and kill them and rob them and mess up their societies?

Croghan27

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 05:11:43 PM »
Quote from: skdadl
Well, but, um, Croggy: the situations are fundamentally different. Nobody is threatening the real lives of fundamentalist wingnuts here. Nobody has invaded their country or bombed them or killed at least one of their relatives or forced them to live in ways they don't choose.

Why is it so hard for North Americans to grasp what imposed imperialist cultural deformation does to real live people?

Stupidest question of the century: "Why do they hate us?"

Gee. Do you think it could have something to do with the fact that we invade them and kill them and rob them and mess up their societies?

croggy27 kicks hisself knowing that once again he has not fully explored what he planed to explain!

I intended to connect those people, no matter where they are it seems) who's unthinking core values are being attacked - be it Afghanistan or anywhere else. Certainly what we called the fetus fetishists are having their fundamental view of the world encroached upon, and they have turned violent many times even unto killing their 'opposition', I have seen the folks in good 'ol Toronto throw bricks and garbage at the some the Gay Pride Parades, and the list of gays and supposed gays that are beaten, often to death are in any paper just about every day. The common thread is that if we allow this, where will it lead? Someone's fundamental belief system is being attacked - and the only response they can come up with is without connection, but demonstrates opposition and deep emotional anger.

The throwing of stones will get you locked up in N. America - as will the firing of guns into the air to celebrate something that is common in Afghanistan - but the impulse is still there. That is what remains, the unthinking response to a perceived attack on some core 'principle', elicits is emotional. irrational and often violent.  The 'Taliban Jack' line is nonsense, as is the claim in another thread that gay marriage will lead to robot sex, as is disputing that allowing equality for women in Afghanistan is equal to supporting the foreign invaders. There is some kind of disconnect between the opposition to the original idea (in one talk to the Taliban, in the other equality for women) and the response that there must be something deeper that just the singular instance calls for - something in the bed rock of a belief: a belief that is seen as being attacked.

One of the anti-law demonstrators is called a 'dog'. That implies dirt and disease and rooting through garbage - does the person making that metaphor really mean the other demonstrator does that? No - but it is the worst thing they can come up with to say.A journalist biffed a shoe at Bush last year. A shoe here is just a foot covering, stylish or otherwise - in that world it is encumbered with all sorts of meanings about filth and dirt.
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

skdadl

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 05:54:16 PM »
Croggy, I still disagree.

I do not see that anything the fetus fetishists could claim was being "done" to them in this country comes anywhere close to the experience of seeing your father or your brother slaughtered in front of you by a foreigner. I just do not see that.

There are dangerously unreasonable reactions to the rigours of justice in a democracy, and we have to cope with those.

But hating the jerk who murdered your father? For no good reason except that he has The Power and he could?

Of course we don't want that, but who wouldn't feel that? And given that we've set up a system that does nothing to address the problem, who is surprised that many people around the world hate us and everything about us? To the point they're willing to deform their own cultures and themselves just so that they're not like us?

No one is murdering the fetus fetishists. WE ARE MURDERING AFGHANS.

Antonia

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It is when we all play safe that we create a world of utmost insecurity. It is when we all play safe that fatality will lead us to our doom. It is in the "dark shade of courage" alone that the spell can be broken.
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Mandos

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 12:45:43 AM »
Poor old Dawg has a handful of librul interventionist "neocolonialist" commenters.  Forgive me for self-quoting, but I want to save this response I wrote to one of them from the Haloscan grinder:

Quote
Now, it night be argued that it has been able to do so because the loonier Muslims fled to Pakistan on Independence. But I am inclined to give India more credit than that.

This is also kind of breathtakingly ignorant. The Pakistan movement in India/Muslim league largely consisted of what we might call "secular" people today, although they would NOT recognize the term---secular and relatively liberal Muslim cultural-nationalists in the same intellectual vein as the Zionists and other national movements of the time.

In fact, they encountered *opposition* to the Pakistan project from the religious quarter, who were *very* suspicious of Western-influenced nationalist ideologies, and in fact the construction of Western nation-states which they viewed as divisive of the borderless, spiritual citizenship of the Muslim ummah.

The first decades of Pakistan were ones of relative industrial and cultural progress, with major but survivable blips along the way.

The true, great decline of Pakistan and the seeds of the growth of integrist movements happened during the dictatorship of Gen. Zia ul-Haq. And he was funded and supported by the West in this!

So any "liberal" neocolonialist can only be so by reading actual history exactly backwards.

This context is relevant to this thread I started here because my nutty interlocutor is discussing his belief that either Afghan society must be "reformed" through strength and determination, or it must be cast into the garbage bin of history, also by strength and determination (common denominator...).  The example he uses is, of all things, India---the implicit idea being that British colonialism civilized India.  Urk.

The Blawg post in question.

Croghan27

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 01:42:10 AM »
Well said, Mandos ..... I really liked your post before that one .....
Quote
You elide and misrepresent history. It happened despite British colonialism, not because of it. That's why there was a movement to drive them out. There was a civilization in India before the British and unsurprisingly, there's one after.
Mandos

I bet that Jay missed the wondrously snarky: "and unsurprisingly" in reading it too.  :rotfl:

He sounds like ee cummings saying:

Quote
LISN bud LISN


dem
gud
am


lidl yelluh bas
tuds weer goin


duhSIVILEYEzum
"It is also a good rule not to put overmuch confidence in the observational results that are put forward until they are confirmed by theory." -- Arthur Stanley Eddington

Catchfire

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 08:03:18 PM »
That's lovely Croghan!

skdadl

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 08:02:44 AM »
Good statement from Judy Rebick about the political manipulation of Western concern for the women of Afghanistan.

sparqui

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Re: Afghanistan: Protest and counter-protest
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 10:18:23 AM »
Brava Judy! :applause:
If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a tractor. -- Gilles Duceppe

 

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