Author Topic: Down Episcope  (Read 4475 times)

Mandos

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Down Episcope
« on: October 25, 2009, 01:03:44 AM »
So, the Pope wants to use the Anglican divisions as a wedge to reverse the Reformation.

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 01:30:53 AM »
Much as I view this move with distaste, this is something that has been in the works for a long time - there are Anglican groups that have been pestering the Vatican for entry since the current debates in the Anglican Church began. This move by the Pope has actually been delayed since last February.


Link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6888208.ece

excerpt:

The Times understands that the former Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, a former co-chairman of the AnglicanRoman Catholic International Commission, known as Arcic, tried unsuccessfully to stop the apostolic constitution being published. His protests and others’ concerns delayed its publication, intended for last February.

ARCIC dates back to 1970. I have Mob friends who have sat on ARCIC cmmittees. :spy:


ETA: I viewed this move with distaste because it looks like "poaching" another flock, and I'd rather that Anglicans work out their differences internally - but the reactionaries refused to have anything more to do with supposedly liberal bias in their church.

Mandos

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 01:59:09 AM »
Here's the NCR on the move (they are ecstatic):

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/ironing ... stitution/

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 09:43:18 AM »
My guess is that Anglicans are still digesting the Pope's move, because it's still early stages. We'll probably have a year or more of just observing how much this impacts our church - beyond that, I just can't say.

brebis noire

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 10:53:11 AM »
There was an English CBC radio program on this last week; I listened to a short interview with an English Catholic priest from Montreal who also viewed this move with distaste. If it had been a movement of individuals he'd view it differently, but as a group movement, and a conservative one at that, that particular priest wasn't happy at all. In fact, he wasn't at all happy with Pope Ratzi's nomination from the beginning, and I thought him quite brave to express his dissidence, though he did it very politely.

I made the mistake of bringing this topic up with a Catholic friend last week...even though I have no horse in this race, I find it intriguing because of the mix of conservative politics and spiritual pretentions...and the ever-present tensions between liberals and conservatives in both the Catholic and Anglican churches. Of course, in the evangelical community, liberals don't even exist so I find the tensions rather exciting.  :oops:

lagatta

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 11:33:27 AM »
The last thing the progressive Catholics I know - that is, those who remain committed Catholics - want is an influx of even more misogynists and homophobes.

brebis, I heard that CBC Mtl show too; yes, that priest was extremely forthright and extremely diplomatic at the same time.

This is raiding, not "extended a hand to brethren". I remember raiding from my time active in the trade union movement here. It does not build workers' unity, on the contrary, and I don't see how it can build fellowship among Christian believers of different confessions.
" Eure \'Ordnung\' ist auf Sand gebaut. Die Revolution wird sich morgen schon \'rasselnd wieder in die Höhe richten\' und zu eurem Schrecken mit Posaunenklang verkünden: \'Ich war, ich bin, ich werde sein!\' "
Rosa Luxemburg

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 01:56:23 PM »
Ratzinger is a shrewd guy, and probably hungry for still more right wingnuts in his church, and saw the perfect opportunity, and went for it. This has been building up for a long time, as I mentioned earlier. I think the RCC is going to be set in its ways for at least as long as I'm alive - I doubt I'll see the day when a young, progressive candidate ever becomes Pope.

We had hopes when the current C of E Archbishop of Canterbury took office, but he proved to be a bit of a disappointment.

skdadl

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 02:24:23 PM »
Anglo-Catholicism goes back a long way, to Henry VIII himself, really, who wanted rid of the pope but not much else. It has gone through changes and some heavy theologizing since, and I believe that it isn't strictly correct to equate it with High Church Anglicanism, although close. (I'm writing as a non-Anglican, and trying to be respectful.)

I take it, though, that the current splits aren't entirely historical/theological? That they have more to do with contemporary social controversies than with traditional High Church aspirations? I can imagine there's some overlap, but I don't associate High Church Anglicans with social enthusiasms of any kind, one way or the other.

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 02:50:27 PM »
Well, Trinity College in Toronto, historically high church, has been turning out social activists for decades now (I know, I became friends with many of them while a full time student there and did a series of papers on Latin American Liberation Theology). The low church seminary across the road, Wycliffe, (both are Anglican) by contrast, is quite conservative. I don't think one can generalise so much about the Anglican Church nowadays. Trinity College, while still high church,  had a woman priest as their College Chaplain for almost ten years (she's a dear friend of mine) not to mention women professors on the faculty. A friend of mine in the same period (1977 - 1980) did a thesis at Trinity on Gay Liberation Theology, followed by many more who have done likewise (and Trinity College was a meeting place for Integrity, the association for Gay Anglicans nationwide). It's been quite an activist college, and I can name several other Anglican seminaries, low and high, that are similar.

ETA: I believe the model of the social acxtivist "worker priest" came out of the High Church tradition, probably a hundred years ago, when Anglican clergy earned a living working amongst the poor in the slums of London.

skdadl

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 03:03:46 PM »
I defer to you then, Boom Boom. I know Trinity a bit, although not through its seminary. Your description surprises me a bit.

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 03:17:11 PM »
Well, I joined the Anglican Church, leaving the United Church, in 1977 partly because of their progress on the ordination of women, but also because of Anglican social activism, and also partly because of the new Book of Alternative Services. Trinity College was a natural choice for me in that regard.

Skdadl, you must have known Dan Heap of the NDP. He was an Anglican social activist, and a regular fixture at Trinity College Friday morning Eucharists. I'd say at least a third of our graduating class of 1980 were NDP supporters.

By the way, two of the highest Anglican churches in Canada are located in Toronto: St. Mary Magdalene, and St. Thomas (on Huron Street, I think) and both are regular student clergy placements for Trinity College. They embraced the college's social activism with open arms. However, Trinity has had a new Dean of Divinity who I knew to be conservative, but I think has radicalized a bit since I was a student there. I do know that Trinity has a regular High Mass every week under his direction.

(edited to correct a statistic)

skdadl

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 03:32:52 PM »
I did indeed know Dan, lovely man, from his days in the Waffle, before he was elected, and his wife Alice a bit. Dan was an ordained priest, was he not?

I also know St Mary Magdalene a bit -- an old friend was a verger there, and we have a wonderful photo of her leading the Queen Mum up the aisle on one of the royal visits. That church is also famous for its association with Healey Willan and his music -- excellent choirs still.

My friend died too young, but for her service the church paid her the tribute of a high mass, the likes of which I never expect to see again. I doubt they could match that in the Vatican.

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 03:37:54 PM »
Yes, of course, Dan Heap was an ordained Anglican priest, that's why I made reference to him. He was an associate priest at Holy Trinity behind the Eaton's Centre, probably the most activist church in all of Canada.

By the way, I studied at Trinity College with Dennis Drainville, now the new Bishop of Quebec (my diocese since 1995). Dennis Drainville won the riding of Victoria-Haliburton for the NDP in 1990, only to resign three years later because he disagreed with a move by Bob Rae's government to allow casino gambling in the province.


ETA: I don't think Dennis knew of my Mob connections :spy:  :lol:

Boom Boom

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 03:42:22 PM »
I mentioned I studied theology at Trinity College with Dennis Drainville, although I was one year ahead of him.

From: http://www.quebec.anglican.org/Front%20page/Bishop%20Dennis/Bishop%20Dennis%20Bio.htm

excerpt:

Dennis has served as a board member and fund-raising chair for the Auberge Madeleine Women's Shelter in Montréal, as well as on the board of Le Garde-manger Pour Tous, a Montréal food bank, and of St. Michael's Mission, a Montréal drop-in centre for street people. During 1985-1986 Dennis was chairperson of the National Conference on Hunger. He chaired a steering committee of representatives of numerous agencies that led to the first Conference on Hunger in Canada, held in 1987 in Toronto. He has also provided leadership for the Social Planning Council of Metro Toronto and served on the Toronto Working Group on Equality Rights and worked with Rural Dignity of Canada. As a social justice activist, he has been invited to speak in every province in Canada, giving more than 250 addresses to conferences, seminars and workshops, and has given lectures to dozens of schools, community groups and service clubs. Dennis received the Canada 125 Commemorative Medal for service to the community.

deBeauxOs

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Re: Down Episcope
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 07:13:26 PM »
eh.  Bruce at Canuck Attitude has a sardonic way of spinning Pope Maledict's raid: Gays Mend 475 Year Rift Between Churches

 

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